Looks like I will have to return my radarbox for repair.
It started yesterday when Myflights decreased in number and I was only picking up local 40-50 miles, usually 180NM.
I thought at first it was the Elad but when I removed it from the circuit and tried different aerials it is just the same. At the moment I have the AirNav supplied aerial on my flat roof and I am barely receiving up to 30 NM!
Will give W&S a call in an hour to return.
Terry
Tough luck Terry.
Sounds like another attack of the dreaded SAW filter bug. It's spreading quicker than Mexican Swine flu. On the plus side, you'll find W&S do a good quick job.
However, prevention being better than cure, I wish someone nail down the cause.
Quote from: bratters on May 07, 2009, 08:25:21 AM
Tough luck Terry.
Sounds like another attack of the dreaded SAW filter bug. It's spreading quicker than Mexican Swine flu. On the plus side, you'll find W&S do a good quick job.
However, prevention being better than cure, I wish someone nail down the cause.
Static is a item people do not understand, its in the air, anytime day or night,day, night winter, summer, outdoor aerials are very prone to static.
Always ground/earth aerials, you will save yourself a lot of trouble.
Much the same as happened to mine (which W&S have just phoned ansd said it's on it's way back to me now ) ......
As I understand it they are doing some kind of mod to returned RBs to minimise the effects of static.
Chris - agree with what you say(earthing) - but as an HF(long wire) person I have little or no experience of dealing with magmount type antennae ...perhaps, for the benefit of all...you could tell us the best way.
Close to where your feeder enters the house, fix a grounding block attached to a deep ground spike(s) - the deeper and the more metal underground the better. Ground your mast too with a short as possible, straight grounding strap. If you're using the supplied RB antenna in an upstairs room then it's not really gonig to be feasible to do this, then again it's far less likely to attract static charge than a larger mast mounted antenna blowing about in the wind.
Quote from: daveg4otu on May 07, 2009, 11:59:37 AM
Much the same as happened to mine (which W&S have just phoned ansd said it's on it's way back to me now ) ......
As I understand it they are doing some kind of mod to returned RBs to minimise the effects of static.
Well, if there is a fix that can be implemented, that's most encouraging news.
Just a quick question, is this problem happening with the supplied aerial or external ones?
Both apparently, but moreso it would seem if the aerials are used outside.
In my own case it was the supplied aerial on an outside window ledge but I seem to recall a couple of cases of the supplied aerial used indoors. Somebody will correct/confirm that no doubt.
If it's static......well we can all generate that in certain circumstances.
In that case maybe a general warning needs to go out to all users. ?
There have been several forum threads stretching way back however Airnav state that only a very small number of boxes have been affected and no cause for general alarm.
Just lately there seems to have been an increase - maybe the symptoms have become better recognised. Would good weather mean more aerials placed outside?
I have no idea.
Only thing I can think of with the fairly good weather (Bank holiday weekend excluded of course) this is the result of high pressure. Usually get a static build up.
Just a thought if W&S are fitting a mod to returned boxes there must have been a fair few returned?
Quotewith the supplied aerial or external ones?
In my case the supplied antenna - on biscuit tin a flat roof about 8 ft agl
Quotefix a grounding block attached to a deep ground spike(s)
Makes sense - sadly here we are surrounded by several feet wide concrete paths. Last place I had room for 150 ft of LW and a vast copper earth mat for HF working ....Oh- well - never mind!
:(
I'll forget the idea of a biscuit tin on my roof then
Quote from: malc41 on May 07, 2009, 03:56:07 PM
I'll forget the idea of a biscuit tin on my roof then
Well, if there's some sort of mod. available............?
I know I've mentioned it before, but I'm finding the old Peugeot 405 brake disc is a superb base for the standard twig, with the supplied CD disc it was blowing off all the time - hasn't shifted since I've been using the brake disc - no difference in reception.
Biscuit tin full of rubble - goes nowhere even in strong winds.
i know its no help but W&S are very good at turning round repairs. Sent mine in on Tues this week and got it back at 0930 this morning excelent service
Today, Saturday, received my, previously deaf/blind and now, "repaired" radarbox back from W&S, however, all is not well.
Although now, yes, I can get a few flights from the supplied aerial, the sensitivity is nowhere near what it was before it went t**s- up a couple of weeks ago.
According to the plot now showing on the screen; from my Nth London location, (Height ASL?) I'm getting returns from about 20 miles north of the M25 and not even as far as the M25 in the south. Previously I was enjoying returns from beyond the French and Dutch coasts and south Yorkshire in the north!
Can anyone else with an apparently repaired 'box testify to similar behaviour?
Might I hazard a guess in thinking that the "Fix" that W&S are apparently fitting to SAW filter repaired boxes is effectively de-sensitising them? At these sorts of frequencies small apparently insignificant things in the signal path can invoke strange and unnacountable behaviour.
I might also put in a plea for Airnav to look again at this situation? To say it's only happened to a few times doesn't seem to be a good enough answer for what seems to be an on-going design issue.
If a piece of equipment is designed to be connected to an aerial which might, conceivably, be mounted high up in the air and prone to static charges then it should easily be able to withstand them without failing shouldn't it?
I have a Windows based HF/VHF receiver, WinRadio G313i which is ALWAYS connected, via an atu, to a wire aerial about 120 foot long and 50 feet off the deck, if THAT doesn't get shed loads of static then I don't know what does, needless to say I've never had any, "issues" with that, neither have I had issues with my AR3000A's, Fairhaven RD500 and other HF/VHF/UHF equipment that has passed through my hands over the last 30 years and that remains permanently connected to various aerials about the place.
This messing about is taking the shine off, I didn't spend all that money for a work-in-progress.
I'd be interested to learn of other peoples experiences.
Cheers
Ed. Direct email:
[email protected]
Can only say that mine suffered a sudden loss in sensitivity about 9 days ago -returned to WS last Friday (before the bank Holiday) got it back yesterday - if anything betterethan as was originally.
However I will agree with your remarks about equipment and static - I've run assorted VHF and HF TX/RX or RXs over the past 40 or so years connected to some fairly massive arrays(EG:20 meter 3 el Yagi ) or LWs and never had any ill-effects ....
Never dabbled in UHF.
Two things tho that may have a bearing on the current situation.
1:All those antenna were working against a fairly large earth mat
2:The equipment was valved, or at best transistorised - no ICs.
Over a week now and still waiting for the return of my Radarbox!
It was on the W&S bench on Tuesday being worked on.
Hope its this week.
Terry
Only our first units are affected by static problems. When they come out of W&S the problem is totally corrected (a new simple electronic circuit will be added to their input) and the same situation will not happen in the future.
All the units made in/after July 2008 do not have any kind of static problem (80% of the unit on the market now).
Seeing as it's a known design problem, will the ones made before last July be put right free of charge if they become faulty after the 2 year warranty expires?
Hawkeye
Interesting point!
Quote from: Hawkeye on May 14, 2009, 11:53:32 AM
Seeing as it's a known design problem, will the ones made before last July be put right free of charge if they become faulty after the 2 year warranty expires?
i got my one January 2009 is it ok to fit outdoor aerial.
Would it not be better to specify the serial numbers affected rather than a date.
gowiththeflow
It would seem so, but do read WAL2T message with reference to grounding the mast, etc
"Seeing as it's a known design problem, will the ones made before last July be put right free of charge if they become faulty after the 2 year warranty expires?"
If it was a 100% guaranteed problem we would do that but this problem only happens to less than 3% of boxes and under very specific conditions. Most (99%) of them are sold.
"i got my one January 2009 is it ok to fit outdoor aerial. "
Of course it is.
Development
Could you just clarify what the "very specific conditions" are please ?
I mentioned on the forum over a week ago that I was having reduced reception problems and you said it was all down to atmospheric conditions, wind direction, runway in use and flight routings.
I bought mine in January 2008 and am tempted to return to W&S. Do I just contact them directly or do I need some specific referral from your company ?
Cheers
I mentioned on the forum over a week ago that I was having reduced reception problems and you said it was all down to atmospheric conditions, wind direction, runway in use and flight routings."
ADS-B signal propagation is affected by several conditions. 99% of the times when a user reports reduced reception this happens because of low propagation. Also sometimes there are issues with users antenna. Anyway you continue to receive 50% to 70% of the total traffic you receive at maximum conditions.
Anyway if in one day your experience a 90% drop in received traffic and that continues to happen, day after day, it is for sure a hardware failure. The "specific conditions" are usually the problems caused by static on the antenna connector.
Again:
- this only applies to a very limited low number of units (the older models);
- when you return the box to W&S the problem is corrected forever (no re-returns);
- only 3% of the users that have older units have reported this problem;
Please contact our support as they will give you more helpful details.
Development
But that does not answer the question posed.
Quote from: Hawkeye on May 14, 2009, 11:53:32 AM
Seeing as it's a known design problem, will the ones made before last July be put right free of charge if they become faulty after the 2 year warranty expires?
It is not a design problem. The levels of returns are still very low for it to be considered an problem. We acted in a maner at the time these came to light to increase the protection in newer batches.
However if your warranty has expired and you are from that batch and it is that particular issue (very important its not another issue) we will rectify it free of charge.
However we would urge all customers to take particular care in making sure your external setup take steps to limit static build up.
Thanks Support for clarifying this
I think we all appreciate now that the external setups should be appropiately ground to prevent static, but there did seem to be some concern that the problem manifesting itself even using the supplied aerial located inside.
It's good practice to ground all external antennae and that includes your TV aerial or satellite dish. Most people don't bother either due to lack of knowledge or because it isn't the most practical of tasks.
Chris
In most cases I think it is through lack of knowledge. When you employ somebody to erect you aerial, dish etc they either can't be bothered or its too much trouble.
I remember on most churches and such like seeing a thick copper type strap running down the outside of the building. Can't ever remeber seeing one on a house?
Still no sign of my Radarbox from W&S.
It is now 10 days.
Every time I ring them nobody is available in service or messages are not returned!
The one time I did get info, not from service, was that it was on the service bench, that was last Tuesday.
Still waiting.
I thought it was a quick turnaround?
Terry
As suggested above have you already contacted your support regarding this problem? We can solve the situation immediately but we need to know more details about it. Please contact our support at
[email protected] ASAP.
Quote from: malc41 on May 15, 2009, 08:22:32 AMI remember on most churches and such like seeing a thick copper type strap running down the outside of the building. Can't ever remeber seeing one on a house?
Hi Malc, these are full blown lightning conductor earthing straps, years ago, I saw one after a direct hit and all the attachments to the wall had blown apart and the strap was dangling. It had done its job though. For our use, a minimum 10mm copper earthing wire taken to an earthing rod (with the rod situated in soil as damp as possible - a piece of slate under the end of a drain pipe can work wonders) will suffice. There's an interesting "techniques" article in the current Radio User magazine on how to set up a water drill using copper pipe, to establish an effective earthing system.
Quote from: Hawkeye on May 14, 2009, 11:53:32 AM
Seeing as it's a known design problem, will the ones made before last July be put right free of charge if they become faulty after the 2 year warranty expires?
Under consumer legislation in England your right of redress against faulty products is not specifically limited by time. It is very straightforward to get a duff product repaired free. Manufacturers' warranties are for the most part immaterial and they cannot limit nor remove your statutory rights.
If you live in England, mug up here:
http://whatconsumer.co.uk/the-sale-of-goods-act/
That is exactly what we mentioned on previous posts.
My radarbox has been away 14 days tomorrow.
Still no signs of it returning.
How it could have been on the bench last Tuesday and still have not been fixed and returned is beyond me?
Getting more than a little disillusioned now.
Terry
Terry - have you tried ringing W&S and enquiring as to what is happening?
I have found them very willing to check and very informative so far.
Dave,
I have found them quite unwilling to find out!
Never any reply from the service department.
I have left messages to call me back but to no avail.
I am an existing customer of long standing.
Terry
Terry
I know it does not help, but as Dave says they have allows be 1st rate in my opinion.
Maybe you caught them when they were well busy?
Give them a call after lunch, if no luck send us the details and we will follow up for you.
We did have one RB returned for a fix which the customer had opened invalidating the warranty, I hope thats not your one.
Thanks for all emails.
No, I have never opened my radarbox. It has remained on my shelf plugged in since the day it arrived on October 24th 2008 until the problem occurred.
I have always had good service from W&S so it has been suprising that I have been unable to get any info.
Stop press: Just as I am writing this W&S called me and it has just been put back together, there was a "fault", will know more later, it is being sent off today so should be with me tomorrow.
Hopefully it will all end with the box back as it was.
Thanks to all.
Terry
Terry
Glad your problem has been resolved
AirNav,
Could you please find out what has happened to my Radarbox.
After the conversation with W&S nothing arrived on Wednesday or today.
Is there some sort of problem with my equipment?
Thanks
Terry