Now that Kinetic have removed the 5-minute delay from port 30003 output, will Airnav follow suit and implement the same change, to maintain compatability with SBS-1 port 30003 output.
We will not be doing this at the present time.
It seems to be a knee jerk reaction since Live Network was released, simply in order to try and get 3rd party networks to match it without hacking their own software.
As we have said before, we feel removing the delay could be counter active to our network.
We will discuss this internally but at present we will not be changing the delay in the current beta version.
I hardly see why removing a pointless hamstring could be considered a "knee-jerk reaction" - it makes complete common sense to me. Of course, if there is a profit to be made...
DC
Deadcalm,
While we don't want to discuss what other companies are doing. The question is then simply if it was something which made so much sense, why did it take them 3-4 years to do it. That question should be aimed at them on there forum not here.
Just FYI, we can see this thread taking a turn with certain "fans" please keep it civil.
We have mentioned it will be discussed between us but at present we are not changing it in the beta.
I suspect Kinetic has found that supporting customers using the realtime patch is harder than letting all customers get at realtime data.
Plus the advent of a brand new ModeS receiver from a new entrant may have been an influence.
No need to ask them anything - they've done it. It doesn't affect me, anyway, because I only have a RB. And there's nothing uncivil about anything I've written on the subject, just observational comment.
DC
I guess as the marketplace expands, with new ModeS receivers, and home-brew receivers, manufacturers will have to look for new USPs to differentiate their product.
It will be interesting to see if real-time port 30003 is a big enough USP, and what other USPs the software companies can come up with to differentiate their product.
Products evolve and the market place changes all the time. We are here for the long haul and our commitment over the last few years shows that.
At the end of the day, it's the software that matters most, as long as the box delivers good data. And price.
It will be interesting to see what the new kid on the block has to offer. Competition is good for everyone, suppliers as well as customers.
Quote from: MikeC on November 16, 2009, 05:25:53 PM
At the end of the day, it's the software that matters most, as long as the box delivers good data. And price.
It will be interesting to see what the new kid on the block has to offer. Competition is good for everyone, suppliers as well as customers.
hi all
Think what we are all trying to say is you never know what tomorrow brings,
and the airnav box does what it says on the tin, no hacks so far.
from pat.
Quote from: MikeC on November 16, 2009, 05:25:53 PMAt the end of the day, it's the software that matters most, as long as the box delivers good data. And price.
I guess there's the software, the price, but also the online services that you can also buy - network, real-time network.
I guess each manufacturer will have a different perspective on how to generate maximum revenue from their R&D investment. An open-source software solution would be nice though ;)
Yes I agree Tarbat, software and services.
Quote from: AirNav Support on November 16, 2009, 05:01:47 PMIt seems to be a knee jerk reaction since Live Network was released, simply in order to try and get 3rd party networks to match it without hacking their own software.
As we have said before, we feel removing the delay could be counter active to our network
Actually, Kinetic's decision to remove the delay is a straightforward commercial decision. Equally, AirNav's decision not to is too.
Nothing new to us: fortunately our competition does not have the minimum software development capabilities so has to rely on third party addons to stay alive. That explains the real-time 30003 output which brings nothing to what RadarBox is already offering.
AirNav RadarBox is a complete ready to use system that brings innovation. It is not a stopped project which is now no more than a hardware that tries to promote itself based on false advertisements. The growing sales and total market leadership RadarBox has say it all and these mini-reactions just show how incapable our competitors are to face our innovation.
We strongly believe that the success of a product is based on work, quality, development and innovation and not on background games and "fake mega announcements" that bring nothing new to this market.
In simple words we do deliver what we promise.
Quote from: DaveReid on November 16, 2009, 07:23:03 PM
Quote from: AirNav Support on November 16, 2009, 05:01:47 PMIt seems to be a knee jerk reaction since Live Network was released, simply in order to try and get 3rd party networks to match it without hacking their own software.
As we have said before, we feel removing the delay could be counter active to our network
Actually, Kinetic's decision to remove the delay is a straightforward commercial decision. Equally, AirNav's decision not to is too.
hi Dave
Whats the first thing you do when you get a sbs box, you go and download the hack to remove the five minute delay, so now you dont have to relay on the third party addon , that's the way i see it.
from pat
Quote from: radarspotter10 on November 16, 2009, 10:14:59 PMWhats the first thing you do when you get a sbs box, you go and download the hack to remove the five minute delay, so now you dont have to relay on the third party addon , that's the way i see it.
Thanks Pat, I hadn't thought of it like that.
We see now how AN point of view on realtime is, other manufacturers do it this way: (from the Aurora Eurotech website)
Q - What do you mean by Real Time.
A - We consider Real Time to mean that if you can see an aircraft take off with your eyes, then what you see on the computer should be delayed by less than 1 second.
This also applies to data sent to third party programs ie. Planeplotter. ALL our data is sent LIVE, all other Virtual Radars on the market delay this data by 5 Minutes.
Update 16 Nov 2009 - After announcing our Virtual Radar 3D to dealers this morning, Kinetic have released an update to remove the 5 Minute delay from their Basestation software this afternoon.
This is good news for everyone.
Huh, did you see that... update 16 Nov., wow... that's another way of replying to customers!
Knee jerk reaction as we said. If was such an easy thing to do why didn't they do this years ago if there was no reason not to do it.
Jannuh, there is something that the competitor promised customers for years as well and never provided.
Whilst it's easy to see both points of view, if Realtime is going to be the industry norm - and it looks increasingly like it - 5 minute delayed Network will to all intents and purposes be totally obsolete and unsaleable.
I think we can see which way this is going....
Quote from: AirNav Support on November 17, 2009, 10:13:24 AM
Knee jerk reaction as we said.
Well yes and no.
You said "
a knee jerk reaction since Live Network was released", but clearly it's much more closely linked to a new competitor's announcement earlier yesterday of their own live socket feed.
In any field of business, three competitors is better than two for the consumer so we hope that the "new kid" gets up and running.
However a word of caution here. This is a very specialised niche market with an easily defineable ceiling for unit sales - and it will be a low ceiling at that. Nor is there much potential for after-sales business in the shape of add-ons and service fees.
With my business hat on, I predict this is going to be a very crowded field and that will inevitably lead to blood on the carpet - sooner rather than later.
"Whilst it's easy to see both points of view, if Realtime is going to be the industry norm - and it looks increasingly like it - 5 minute delayed Network will to all intents and purposes be totally obsolete and unsaleable."
That's why we have a real-time network.
Expect great news from AirNav Systems this Thursday.
Quote from: AirNav Development on November 17, 2009, 01:49:36 PM
"Whilst it's easy to see both points of view, if Realtime is going to be the industry norm - and it looks increasingly like it - 5 minute delayed Network will to all intents and purposes be totally obsolete and unsaleable."
That's why we have a real-time network.
Expect great news from AirNav Systems this Thursday.
No kneejerking fellas :) Remember, you're market leaders.
Users do the market, remember Microsoft with millenium and vista with a lot of downgrade to xp, and now W7 :)
Wait and see Thursday
Laurent
www.radarvirtuel.com
Quote from: AirNav Development on November 17, 2009, 01:49:36 PM
That's why we have a real-time network.
I think it is a Server, not a network. An Internet Server. If you were to set-up a peer-to-peer "network" then you could say you had a real-time network.
You can have a star-shaped network (like AirNav) or a distributed network like peer-to-peer, and several other types - they are all networks.
Rod
Can I get an IP on this "network?"
Are we really discussing the definition of a network?
Must be a slow news day - lol
HI Allocator
Good question !
If the matter is to discuss networks.... switches, routers and so on, I am Cisco CCNA....
Lets start !
Hahhhahhhhhha
Sometimes the weather here becomes overloaded ...
I think that the life is for getting fun....
And I think that all of us are here because all of us have have something in common...
So... Be happy !
Cheers.....
The way I see it.. and this is purely my own opinion from someone who owns both the competitor's product as well as the RB. The ability to design you're own apps adds to the value of the product rather than takes it away. I do a little programming in VB and i've been using the competitor's product due to the lack of 5 minute delay in data for my software.
Google has the right idea by open sourcing a lot of their products so third party apps can enhance the product offering. As an example, people use their API's all the time to develop mashups and software, but it doesn't turn people away from using their software. If anything, it adds to their value and people use it more. The same can be said about Firefox and the extensions that are built.
I personally don't think turning off the 5 minute delay would harm the live network simply because the network is already established and adds even more value to the device.
It's all about adding value to the device. As mentioned earlier, this is a niche market and in my opinion the thing that differentiates is the ability to customize what you do with the live data. Some great ideas can make the product stand out and improve the software if it was developed by the people rather than the internal developers at Airnav, or the competitor.
Personally, if I was airnav, I'd be changing the business model slightly, and doing things like creating an API for people to build their own applications with the live data, and removing the 5 minute delay.
Airnav can still have their live network as I don't think it will harm their income model. Look at the competitor. People have had the live data patch for years, and there still isn't a network anywhere near as big as Airnav's live network.
Essentially, the live network that already exists is big enough to hold it's own as a value added service. Add on top of that, the ability to build further enhancements by people that use the product, and I think it would be a huge selling point.
Right now, I must admit, the biggest selling point of the competitor's product to me is the lack of 5 minute delay whether by native, or by patch. We all know that everyone is asking for different features. A lot of the features are already in the other product. What better way of gaining market share than to match the other product's features, and allow an API for a mass of other applications to be built.
I have both devices because both have features I like. If I was Airnav, i'd be focusing on matching every single feature, and then some, that way people won't give the competitor a second look.
Because this is a niche product, I believe the more ways to customize the data, the better.
Just my own opinions though. I really hope Airnav in their internal discussions decide to drop the 5 minute delay at the very least. Imho it will really add value to the product.
Quote from: gleff on November 18, 2009, 09:24:11 AMI really hope Airnav in their internal discussions decide to drop the 5 minute delay at the very least. Imho it will really add value to the product.
I suspect they already have - we should find out tomorrow either way.
Quote from: gleff on November 18, 2009, 09:24:11 AM
As above...................................................
..............................I have both devices because both have features I like. If I was Airnav, i'd be focusing on matching every single feature, and then some, that way people won't give the competitor a second look.
Because this is a niche product, I believe the more ways to customize the data, the better.
Just my own opinions though. I really hope Airnav in their internal discussions decide to drop the 5 minute delay at the very least. Imho it will really add value to the product.
Interesting post gleff. If I were Airnav I wouldn't leap into any quick response to what is at present no more than a paper tiger. No serious steps need be taken until the new competitor has actually unveiled his product and that product has been field tested and evaluated. Certainly no sane buyer will put his hand in his pocket until the thing has been properly market-tested, so no rush at the moment.
Launching in January would not be my choice (unable to make Nov/Dec?) and one wonders how their box will be marketed and sold. Direct sales only or through some retail outlets? £300 may be less but it ain't cheap in a restricted market place where one box is enough, two is a luxury and three would be for the favoured few. Whatever, IMO it's a tough ask to get up and running with a product of this nature in these tough times unless you have very substantial resources and a product that you know to be radical enough to sweep the board.
Airnav have the market share - even a thumb in the air measurement like forum traffic volumes will tell you who's doing the business and generating the comment. Complex decisions like when to bring out new hardware and make radical software changes are not easy but no way should they be influenced by gossip and rumour.
Now a sudden and cunning change of direction to take the wind out of competitors' sails would be a different matter.....
Actually, when I was referring to the competitor, I was referring to the SBS-1, not the new kid on the block. But with a new kid on the block, it will certainly strengthen my argument in my opinion.
If, as a result of the competition's "knee-jerk" reaction, Airnav decide (rightly, and at long last) to abandon the pointless 5 minute delay, does that then become a "knee-jerk" reaction to the "knee-jerk" reaction, I wonder?
It just goes to show that you need persistence and someone with the temerity to make a radical decision and go for it to eventually accede to what the customer really wants. Airnav, if they do drop the delay, would just need to address the default sharing issue to make the product much more appealing.
DC
"If, as a result of the competition's "knee-jerk" reaction, Airnav decide (rightly, and at long last) to abandon the pointless 5 minute delay, does that then become a "knee-jerk" reaction to the "knee-jerk" reaction, I wonder?"
We will not fuel this kind of comment on our forum.
Rgd the last question: RadarBox is a market leader and that change wouldn't make the product much more appealing. Sales growth show that RadarBox is by far the most preferred ADS-B receiver now.
Have it your way. Heads in the sand. I rest my case.
DC
Thats not correct Deadcalm.
We are listening and thinking about the repercussions. This forum sometimes give such a openness between management, development and the customers that customers get too comfortable in thinking they can demand and expect any change in the business model, software etc.. and for it to be acted upon.
Very few companies have this sort of openness and its not easy to manage both the business factor and keeping the customers happy in this kind of open forum.
Most (99%) companies take the easy way out and do not appear to discuss at all or provide this open communication. You should be aware of that and understand we can't within a forum post within a few minutes say yes we will change this decision.
I am leaning towards agreeing with Deadcalm here. You say "RadarBox is a market leader and that change wouldn't make the product much more appealing."
If you believe this you are doing yourself a dis-service. I am a customer who owns both devices, and I can tell you, turning the delay off WILL make the product more appealing.
Turning of the delay is being looked at seriously. Deadcalms comment we are sure is more towards the last part of his post about sharing.
Quote from: AirNav Support on November 18, 2009, 07:31:47 PMTurning of the delay is being looked at seriously.
You read it here first: www.airnavsystems.com/forum/index.php?topic=3824.msg38206#msg38206 :-)
I have just discovered that 3.11 beta appears to support a maximum of 3 simultaneous port 30003 connections.
It would be nice if this could be increased a little, say to 5 simultaneous connections?
Quote from: Fenris on November 25, 2009, 06:31:44 PM
I have just discovered that 3.11 beta appears to support a maximum of 3 simultaneous port 30003 connections.
It would be nice if this could be increased a little, say to 5 simultaneous connections?
Can you list an example of 5 applications you would like to run at the same time?
Quote from: OKC-Steve on November 25, 2009, 08:12:22 PM
Quote from: Fenris on November 25, 2009, 06:31:44 PM
I have just discovered that 3.11 beta appears to support a maximum of 3 simultaneous port 30003 connections.
It would be nice if this could be increased a little, say to 5 simultaneous connections?
Can you list an example of 5 applications you would like to run at the same time?
Well, at present I have Squawkbox, Planeplotter and SBS-1 Meter running, and I wanted to do a quick test with SBS-Plotter, which couldn't connect as the allocated sockets were all in use.
So, that's 4 simulataneous and I thought one spare would be nice.
Or maybe it could be made configurable :)